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TESTIMONY OF JAMES STERLING MURRAY AND
*° ' EDWARD TIERS MANNING
(Regarding Clarence Hiskey and Arthur Adams)
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTY-FIRST CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
AUGUST 14 AND OCTOBER 5, 1949
Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
60507
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON : 1950
i
A
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
United States House of Representatives
JOHN S. WOOD, Georgia, Chairman
FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania J. PARNELL THOMAS, New Jersey
BIRR P. HARRISON, Virginia RICHARD M. NIXON, California
JOHN McSWEENEY, Ohio FRANCIS CASE, South Dakota
MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri HAROLD H. VELDE, Illinois
Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., Counsel
Louis J. Russell, Senior Investigator
Benjamin Mandel, Director of Research
John W. Carrington, Clerk of Committee
II
CONTENTS
August 14, 1949— Page
Testimony of James Sterling Murray 877
October ">, 1949—
Testimony of Edward Tiers Manning 881
in
TESTIMONY7OF JAMES STERLING MUBRAY AND
EDWARD TIERS MANNING
(Regarding Clarence Hiskey and Arthur Adams)
SUNDAY, AUGUST 14, 1949
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the Committee
on Un-American Activities,
Washington, D. G.
executive session
The subcommittee of one met, pursuant to call, at 4 p. m., in room
226, Old House Office Building, Hon. Harold H. Velde presiding.
Committee member present : Hon. Harold H. Velde.
Staff members present: Louis J. Russell, senior investigator; Don-
ald T. Appell, investigator.
Mr. Velde. We should let the record show that Representative Velde
was appointed last Thursday as a subcommittee on one to take the
testimony of Mr. Murray.
Will you raise your right hand, Mr. Murray ? In the testimony you
are about to give, do you solemnly swear you will tell the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
TESTIMONY OP JAMES STERLING MURRAY— Excerpts
Mr. Appell. Mr. Murray, for the record, will you state your full
name ?
Mr. Murray. James Sterling Murray.
Mr. Appell. What is your present address ?
Mr. Murray. Well, my permanent address is 2112 Shepard Street
NE., Washington 18, D. C.
Mr. Appell. What is your present occupation ?
Mr. Murray. I am assistant to the president of the Lindsay Light
& Chemical Co., West Chicago, 111.
Mr. Appell. Were you formerly associated with the CIC of the
Army ?
Mr. Murray. Yes ; I was. I was appointed in the CIC in December
1941, and was with that organization until my discharge from the
Army, March 1946.
Mr. Appell. During your association with the CIC, were you as-
signed to the Manhattan Engineering District?
Mr. Murray. Yes ; I was. I was assigned to Manhattan Engineer-
ing District in January 1943, and was so assigned until March 1946.
877
878 TESTIMONY OF J. S. MURRAY AND E. T. MANNING
Mr. Appell. During your assignment to the Manhattan Engineer-
ing District, to what projects were you assigned, specifically!
Mr. Murray. From January 1943 until
Mr. Appell. Roughly.
Mr, Murray. Roughly. April 194-1, I was officer in charge of secu-
rity and intelligence in the San Francisco district, and, as such, han-
dled security and intelligence work at such projects as the one at the
University of California.
From April 1944 until March 194G. I was officer in charge of security
and intelligence in the Chicago district, and, as such, handled security
and the intelligence work for 98 different contractors, one of which
was the University of Chicago.
*******
Mr. Russell. Mr. Murray, while von were stationed at Chicago,
did you secure any information regarding the activities of Clarence
Hiskey?
Mr. Murray. Yes; we had Mr. Hiskey under investigation upon a
report from a confidential informant that he had been active in Com-
munist and leftist organizations during his college career.
Mr. Russell. Did you secure any facts regarding his associations
with Arthur Adams and John Hitchcock Chapin?
Mr. Murray. Hiskey was the very good friend of Chapin's, and on
occasion we observed Hiskey in the company of Arthur Adams.
Mr. Russell. Was the surveillance of the meeting between Chapin
and Adams conducted by your organization or by another Federal
agency?
Mr. Murray. Who were the parties again, please?
Mr. Russell. Chapin and Adams.
Mr. Murray. That surveillance was conducted by another agency,
through mutual agreement.
Mr. Russell. Could you furnish the committee with information
regarding the reason Clarence Hiskey was inducted in the United
States Army?
Mr. Murray. During the course of investigation of Hiskey, and
while he was employed on the Manhattan project, his number came
up for induction, and Hiskey, having a Reserve commission. I believe
elected to take his reserve commission rather than be inducted as an
Army private.
We in the Manhattan District were part of the Army, and, as such,
maintained jurisdiction over Army personnel, so therefore our juris-
diction over Hiskey continued for a time after Ids going on active
duty with the Army. We had many reasons for maintaining inves-
tigation and jurisdiction of Hiskey, and \\c were highly suspicions of
him.
Mr. Yii.de. Anything else!
Mr. Russell. After Clarence Hiskey was inducted in the United
States A it i iv. was lie -cut t<> Alaska, or stationed in Alaska '.
Mr. Murray. He was senl to a far-off United States base near
Mineral Wells, near the Arctic Circle, and he left the metallurgical
laboratory in quite a rush. We were not too sure of the fad thai all
security requirements had been complied with. As a consequence, we
maintained a physical surveillance of Hiskev until he jrot to his new
* ■ *
Army post in the Arctic Circle. The agents, specifically, who con-
TESTIMONY OF J. S. MURRAY AND E. T. MANNING 879
ducted the physical surveillance, was one Charles Clark, who, when the
two of them got to Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, was able to look into
the belongings of Hiskey, through the services of a confidential in-
formant. In such belongings, Agent Clark found written matter
which General Groves himself classified as top secret. There was
later information from another agency to the effect that Hiskey was
to meet a man known to be a Soviet agent some place in Alaska. To
this day, in violation of security regulations, to my best knowledge,
Hiskey has not reported the loss of papers which General Groves x
himself classified as top secret.
Mr. Russell. Was this meeting between Hiskey and the second
Soviet agent — that is, the one in addition to Arthur Adams — to take
place prior to the finding of the notebook in Hiskey's possession ?
Mr. Murray. It was to take place, as I understand, some place dur-
ing the journey from Chicago to Mineral Wells.
Mr. Russell. Do you know whether or not the meeting actually
ever took place ?
Mr. Murray. We don't believe it did, inasmuch as Hiskey certainly
knew that he had been relieved of at least of written information, and
our physical surveillance showed no unusual contact during the jour-
ney to Mineral Wells.
Mr. Russell. Do you recall where the secret information was taken
from him, whether within the United States or in Alaska itself?
Mr. Murray. There would be a thin legal question there. Actually
it was in the domain of Canada on a piece of property leased by the
United States Army.
Mr. Russell. In other words, the secret information which Hiskey
had in his possession was lifted prior to the time that he arrived in
Alaska ?
Mr. Murray. Yes; it was.
Mr. Russell. I have no further questions.
***** * *
Mr. Velde. You have certainly been a great help to us, and we
appreciate your coming here.
(Whereupon, at 5 : 15 p. m., the subcommittee adjourned.)
1 Brig. Gen. Leslie Richard Groves, In charge of the atomic bomb project at time dis-
cussed in this testimony.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES STEELING MUEBAY AND
EDWAED TIEES MANNING
(Regarding Clarence Hiskey and Arthur Adams)
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 5, 1949
United States House of Representatives,
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington, D. O.
PUBLIC SESSION
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 11 : 30 a. m., in room 226,
Old House Office Building, Hon. John S. Wood (chairman) presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives John S. Wood (chair-
man), Morgan M. Moulder, Richard M. Nixon, Francis Case, and
Harold H. Velde.
Staff members present : Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel ; Louis J.
Russell, senior investigator; Donald T. Appell, investigator; John
W. Carrington, clerk; Benjamin Mandel, director of research; and
A. S. Poore, editor.
Mr. Wood. The committee will be in order.
Let the record show that the members present are Mr. Moulder, Mr.
Nixon, Mr. Case, Mr. Velde, and Mr. Wood, a quorum.
Mr. Tavenner. Is Mr. Manning in the room ?
Mr. Wood. Mr. Manning, the photographers desire to take photo-
graphs of you. Do you have any objection ?
Mr. Manning. I guess it is their job.
(Thereupon, photographs were taken of the witness.)
Mr. Wood. Will you stand and be sworn, please. You solemnly
swear the evidence you give this committee will be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Manning. Yes.
TESTIMONY OF EDWARD TIERS MANNING
Mr. Tavenner. Will you please state your full name ?
Mr. Manning. Edward Tiers Manning.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your present address ?
Mr. Manning. 700 Longview Road, Knoxville, Tenn.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born ?
Mr. Manning. November 7, 1920, in Orange, N. J.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give the committee a brief resume of your
educational background ?
Mr. Manning. City schools in Knoxville, Tenn.; graduated from
Knoxville High School in 1938 ; attended the University of Tennessee
subsequently for about two credit years.
60507—50 2 881
882 TESTIMONY OF J. S. MURRAY AND E. T. MANNING
Mr. T.w l.NNF.R. What was your last year of attendance at the Uni-
versity of Tennessee?
Mr. M \nxi.\i;. I was enrolled in classes there in 1940, 1 believe.
Mr, 1 'ukxxer. Will you briefly outline to the committee a resume
of your employment background!
Mr. Manning. My last job was with the United States Army,
Headquarters Eighth Army, Yokohama, Japan, Special Services Sec-
tion, as administrative assistant to special services officer. I began
that job around January 27, 19-17, and left it January 28, 1049.
From about January 25, 1945, to January 27, 1947, I was in the
United States Army.
From October, I believe, 1944, to January 1945, I was employed
as a junior chemical engineer, Tennessee Valley Authority, Florence,
Ala.
From October 1943 to approximately August 1944 I was employed
as a technician by Metallurgical Laboratories, University of Chicago.
From January 1943 to the time I started my duties at Chicago, I
was employed similarly as a technician by SAM Laboratories, Colum-
bia University, New York City.
From approximately January 1 to December 31, 1942, I was em-
ployed by the Harrison Construction Co. on location at Massena, N. Y.
From the summer of 1941 until January, approximately, of 1942, I
was employed by the Harrison Construction Co., first at Alcoa, Term.,
and then at Chattanooga, Tenn.
I attended the University of Tennsssee full time from September
1938 to June 1939, and in the summer of 1939, 1 think it was, I obtained
employment with the Electro Manganese Corp. in Knoxville, Tenn.
From September 1939 until the spring of 1940, 1 went to school part
time and worked at the Electro Manganese Corp. part time; and in
the spring of 1940 I obtained a job with the University of Tennessee
working for the rhenium research project under the direction of
( larence Francis Hiskey.
On termination of my work with the rhenium research project I
commenced my employment with the Harrison Construction Co. in
Alcoa.
Mr. I'avinnkr. Mr. Manning, in what work was the rhenium re-
search project engaged at the time of your employment there?
Mr. M inning. Investigation into the general chemistry of rhenium.
Mr. T.wtnm k. Was tliat organization connected in any way with
the Federal Government?
M p. Manni no. The project was financed by WPA funds.
Mr. T.wi nxkr. You stated that the individual in charge of this
project, at least thai phase of it in which you were engaged, was
Clarence Hiskey. Was it in connection with this employment that
you tii-t met Clarence Hiskey?
Mr. M inning. Yes.
Mr. M"i ldeh. You -aid the project was engaged in an investigation
into the genera] chemist ry of what?
Mr. Manning. Rhenium, r-h-e-n-i-u-m, not to be confused with
uranium.
Mr. T.w in mi;. In addition to heading the rhenium research proj-
ect, was Clarence Hiskey an instructor at the University of Tennes-
TESTIMONY OF J. S. MURRAY AND E. T. MANNING 883
Mr. Manning. I think he had an instructor's rating. I forget
whether he instructed classes.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Clarence Hiskey instruct you in any courses
which you took at the University of Tennessee ?
Mr. Manning. No.
Mr. Tavenner. How well did you get to know Clarence Hiskey
through your employment with the rhenium research project?
Mr. Manning. It is difficult to estimate how well. At first it was
strictly employer to employee. As I learned various laboratory tech-
niques and got into the research, actually working on a problem,
Hiskey paid more attention to my work, and sometime before the
project closed I was calling him Clarence.
There are other indications of how closely I became associated with
him. I had dinner at his house two or three times. I attended
meetings of a group at the university known as the Knoxville Peace
Council at his suggestion, and discussed with him the interests of this
group.
At one time he asked me to order for him from the World Publish-
ing Co., or some similar named company, a dozen copies of one of
Hewlitt Johnson's books on Russia. At various times we discussed
philosophy, politics, and similar subjects.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the purpose of the Knoxville Peace
Council, and who were its officers ?
Mr. Manning. I can only give you the purpose in a generalized
view as I remember it, and it may not be accurate, but I think it was
organized by the people who were worried about the United States
entering the war in progress in Europe. Hiskey's interest at that
time, I think, was that the United States should stay out of the war.
There were Dr. and Mrs. Shafer in it. Hiskey was in it. I don't
remember the names of all the people in it. I think by virtue of my
attendance I was enrolled on its roster, too. There were not over 10 or
15 people in it. It met spasmodically. It was not a growing organiza-
tion.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall where the meetings were held?
Mr. Manning. I can't recall.
Mr. Tavenner. Were any of the meetings held at the home of
Clarence Hiskey ?
Mr. Manning. I don't think so.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall, at any of these meetings or discus-
sions sponsored or called by the Knoxville Peace Council, of your
being addressed by an individual known as Paul Crouch?
Mr. Manning. No. I have seen Paul Crouch's picture in the news-
paper and read some of his testimony before this committee, and had,
even at that time, no connection between Paul Crouch and the Knox-
ville Peace Council. I am surprised if he ever attended.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Manning, during the early days of the Knox-
ville Peace Council, the Hitler-Stalin Pact was in effect, during which
period the line of the Communist Party was against intervention on
the part of the United States with the European conflict. What policy
did the Knoxville Peace Council adopt after the severance of the
Hitler-Stalin Pact?
Mr. Manning. I cannot recall that it adopted any policy. In fact,
I don't think the Knoxville Peace Council lasted as a cohesive organi-
884 TESTIMONY OF J. S. MURRAY AND E. T. MANNING
zation up to that point. I can recall, prior to that time, one instance
of what Clarence Hiskey did in connection with the Knoxville Peace
Council.
Mr. Tavenner. Would you relate it to the committee?
Mr. Manning. I remember his preparing a statement of policy
which, as my memory best serves me, was to have been a statement of
policy to be adopted by the Knoxville Peace Council which was op-
posed to a bill before Congress called the neutrality bill — H. R. 1776,
1 believe.
In this policy statement, as I recall, which was about three pages
long and which Hiskey wrote, were references which I cannot quote
word for word, but which were of this order : "Fascist beast" ; "minions
of Tojo" or "minions of the Japanese Emperor"; references to large
German cartels and Japanese Zaibatsu, which is a similar cartel
organization.
I cannot recall whether this policy statement was ever adopted by
the peace council or not, but I do remember that Clarence Hiskey
wrote it and asked me to type him a copy of his handwritten statement,
and told me at that time that it was his purpose to get the peace council
to adopt it.
Mr. Tavenner. This statement was in opposition to the enactment
of the Neutrality Act, or a petition in its favor?
Mr. Manning. I believe it was in opposition. I am not too sure.
I might have the position reversed.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Manning, will you describe to the committee
the circumstances under which Clarence Hiskey requested you to
obtain for him from International Publishers 12 copies of the book
on Russia written by Hewlitt Johnson, known as the Red Dean of
Canterbury?
Mr. Manning. As I remember, Hiskey's approach was simple and
disarming. He simply asked me to send for the books, giving some
excuse which apparently was reasonable to me at the time, that he was
short of funds temporarily, or something of that nature, but at any
rate it was not unreasonable to me, and I did write for the books, had
them sent to me, and did give them to Clarence Hiskey.
Mr. Tavenner. What disposition did Clarence Hiskey make of the
books; do you know?
Mi-. Manning. I know that I got one of them. I don't know how
he distributed the rest. I think he intended to give them to some
friends of his, but I can't recall the distribution of the books.
Mr. Tavenner. At the time you ordered the copies of this book
from International Publishers, were you aware of the purpose of and
control which the Communist Party maintains over International
Publishers?
Mr. Manning. No.
Mr. Twin \i i:. Did Clarence Hiskey, dining your association with
him on the rhenium research project, subscribe to or pass to yon for
your review the Daily Worker or other known Communist publica-
tions?
Mr. Manning. I don't recall any instance of the Daily Worker
appearing, bul I remember the New Masses and various other publi-
cations like that.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Clarence Hiskey a subscriber to New Masses?
TESTIMONY OF J. S. MURRAY AND E. T. MANNING 885
Mr. Manning. I believe he was. He also was a subscriber to a dope
sheet known as In Fact. He was a subscription getter for In Fact. He
subscribed to In Fact for me, I assume, since I received it in the mail.
I freely admit renewing that subscription subsequently. He referred
to In Fact as a fine paper. My opinion of his attitude about In Fact
was that he approved of it.
Mr. Tavenner. Other than your attendance at meetings of the
Knoxville Peace Council, did you attend any other political meetings
or rallies with Clarence Hiskey ?
Mr. Manning. None that I remember, and I don't think so.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Clarence Hiskey ever discuss with you the pro-
gram and policy of the Communist Party of the United States?
Mr. Manning. We discussed communism, and in those discussions,
none of which I can recall in detail, we probably discussed the pro-
gram of the Communist Party of the United States, what the Com-
munists intended to do and how they intended to carry out their pro-
gram. I can remember we discussed communism, socialism, religion,
and a number of things like that, but I cannot remember the state-
ments he had or particular topics that we discussed. It has been quite
some time.
However, that is an indecisive answer, and it should be stated that
at no time was I under the impression that Clarence Hiskey was op-
posed to communism in our discussion of it — or socialism of any sort.
Mr. Tavenner. From your political discussions with Clarence
Hiskey, would you say that his politics were* capitalistic, socialistic,
or communistic ?
Mr. Manning. From the discussions I had with him at that time,
I would sa}' that his politics were socialistic, left wing. He didn't
identify himself to me as a Communist, but he never identified himself
against communism.
In the light of my present knowledge, I would say he was a Com-
munist without doubt. At one time I described him to friends as a
dyed-in-the-wool Red, not necessarily connoting that I had knowl-
edge he was a member of the Communist Party, but indicating that his
political sympathies were in the direction that I recognized as left.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Clarence Hiskey or his wife, Marcia Sand
Hiskey, ever ask you to or suggest that you join the Communist Party ?
Mr. Manning. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Did they ever ask you to or suggest that you join
the Young Communist League ?
Mr. Manning. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Or any other branch of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Manning. No.
Mr. Tavenner. After leaving the rhenium research project, which
I believe was approximately the summer of 1941, when did you next
become associated with Clarence Hiskey?
Mr. Manning. Upon entering employment at Columbia University,
SAM Laboratories.
Mr. Tavenner. Who was responsible for your employment with
the SAM Laboratories ?
Mr. Manning. My first contact with SAM was through Clarence
Hiskey, and while I processed my application through regular chan-
nels, I believe that he requested me, or certainly assisted me in getting
886 TESTIMONY OF J. S. MURRAY AND E. T. MANNING
the job. What steps he actually took. T don't know, but I asked him to
help me gel a job. T wanted to work there.
.Mr. Tavenner. What do the letters S-A-M stand for?
Mr. Manning. I think they are of no significance. Possibly "sub-
stitute alloy material."
Mr. Tavenner. From the time of your association with SAM Lab-
oratories until SAM Laboratories moved to the University of Chicago,
what political meet inns, private or public, did you attend with either
Clarence Hiskey or Marcia Sand Hiskey \
Mr. Manning. I recall none whatever. I don't think I attended
any. I saw very little of him.
Mr. Tavenner. From the time SAM Laboratories moved to the
University of Chicago until your separation from SAM Laboratories,
what political meetings, public or private, did you attend in the
company of Clarence Hiskey or Marcia Sand Hiskey?
Mr. Manning. You mean while we were in Chicago?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Max xixo. None whatsoever. That is, not that I understood
to be a political meeting. If you call attendance at the Abraham Lin-
coln School a political meet ing, 1 attended that : but political meetings
per se, no. In fact. I don't recall Marcia Sand Hiskey ever having
been in Chicago with Clarence Hiskey.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Manning, do you know an individual by the
name of Arthur Adams,?
Mr. Manning. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you relate to the committee how you happened
to become acquainted with Arthur Adams?
Mr. MANNING. I will relate first the incidents leading up to it.
I had been visiting in the evenings with Hiskey at his apartment,
occasionally, playing chess and talking, and had such an engage-
ment sometime in the spring or early summer. I believe, of 1944,
Early in the day Hiskey asked me not to come that night as he had
a visitor coming, so I did not go. The next night, or some subse-
quent evening, without having previously mentioned it to Hiskey.
I did drop by his place, and it was then I saw Arthur Adams and was
int induced to him.
Mi-. Tavenner. Where was Clarence Hiskey living at that time?
Mr. M \xning. About three or four blocks from the university, but
I can't remember the address.
Mr. TAVENNER. Do you remember the street?
Mr. MANNING. No. It is one of the streets running north and south.
It is not one of the numbered streets running east and west
Mr. Tavenner. How was Arthur Adams introduced to you by Clar-
ence Hiskey?
Mi-. M \\ \ixo. Simply as Arthur Adams, if that is what you mean —
Mr. Adams.
Mr. TaveNNI a. Did Hiskey tell you Arthur Adams" background or
employment \
Mr. Manning. No. T asked Adams some questions that night —
who he was and where he was from, and he was represented to me
by himself as an engineer. I don't know if Adams was there in the
room or not, but I asked Hiskey at one point if Adams was con-
nected with our work and he said : "Xo. Don't discuss the work with
Arthur Adams."
TESTIMONY OF J. S. MURRAY AND E. T. MANNING 887
Mr. Tavenner. How many times do you estimate you saw Arthur
Adams ?
Mr. Manning. Perhaps seven : I am not sure. I met him at His-
key's, and then either once or twice after that in Hiskey's apartment,
at least that, because when Hiskey was taken into the Army, Adams
was there that day. When I went to New York, at the American
Chemical Society meeting, I think I had dinner with him, and it has
been recalled to me that I met him at a club in New York one evening;.
Then while I was in the Army, just prior to my going overseas, I
went to New York just to see Adams. That was the last time I saw
him, and that was in July 1945.
Mr. Tavenner. During the times you were at Clarence Hiskey's,
at which times Arthur Adams was present, what was the general topic
of conversation ?
Mr. Manning. That is very hard to say. I remember one time dis-
cussing with him his background in Europe. He seemed to me to
have a very interesting background, which consisted of purchasing
materials in Switzerland, France, Germany, and other parts of Europe
for the Soviet Union. I definitely had the impression that he traveled
between these countries and the Soviet Union quite frequently.
At another time he told me of engineering work he had done in
connection with a large hydro-testing tank.
He told me he represented in this country at the present time sev-
eral companies as a consulting engineer. He didn't give the names
of the companies, but he did indicate he was connected with some
music-recording outfit.
Mr. Tavenner. As a result of your several meetings and discussions
with Arthur Adams, as you have described, did you receive the im-
pression from what he said that he was a representative of the Soviet
Union in any capacity?
Mr. Manning. Initially not at all. As a result of the last meet-
ing I had with Arthur Adams, it was my opinion that he was con-
nected with the Soviet Union; meetings prior to that, no. I might
point out that some time elapsed, 3 or 4 months or more, between my
next to the last meeting with Adams and my last meeting with him.
Mr. Tavenner. You related that Adams talked about the work he
did as purchasing agent for the Soviet Union. I was wondering
whether, as a result of your conversations with Adams or Hiskey,
you determined that Adams was still a purchasing agent for the
Soviet Union ?
Mr. Manning. No. The fact that Arthur Adams had associations
with the Soviet Union at that time did not particularly excite me,
other than my interest in the Soviet Union as a place to possibly go to
some day or to see. I had no idea he was connected with any apparatus
of the Soviet Union.
Mr. Tavenner. During your various discussions and conversations
with Hiskey and Adams jointly, was the work at SAM Laboratories
discussed at any time ?
Mr. Manning. In Arthur Adams' presence, Hiskey being there, too,
we never discussed that work. However, the last time I saw Adams,
which was in July 1945 in New York, Adams made direct references
to the work that Hiskey and I and all the rest were engaged in at
both SAM and Chicago.
888 TESTIMONY OF J. S. MURRAY AND E. T. MANNING
Mr. Tavenner. I will ask you a little more in detail later about
that last, conference. What knowledge of the work of SAM Labora-
tories did Arthur Adams profess to you? Did you get the impression
from your conference with him that Arthur Adams had direct knowl-
edge of the work in which SAM Laboratories and the University of
Chicago were engaged?
Mr. Manning. Oh, yes; I received that impression. I can't remem-
ber specifically the detailed knowledge that Adams professed, other
than that I in my mind know that he knew the character of the work,
the fact we were working on atomics or nuclear physics. Whether
he used, in conveying that impression, the terms "atomic" or "ura-
nium," I can't specifically say.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you any knowledge of your own that Arthur
Adams was advised about any of those matters by Clarence Hiskey
or anyone else then working at the SAM Laboratories?
Mr. Manning. At this time, of course, I have that knowledge, but
prior to July 1945 I had no knowledge whatever of how Arthur
Adams could have known, and any knowledge of the fact that he did
know about our work simply caused me to infer that he learned it
through the person I had met Arthur Adams through.
Mr. Tavenner. And that was Clarence Hiskey?
Mr. Manning. That was Clarence Hiskey.
Mr. Tavenner. From your conversation with Arthur Adams in
July 1945, did you gather that Arthur Adams knew of the work
being done by other laboratories set up at the University of Chicago?
Mr. Manning. Other than Manhattan District work?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Manning. No. Did Arthur Adams have a general knowledge
of all other types of atomic energy development being engaged in at
the University of Chicago, is your question, I believe?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Manning. I don't know whether he had that type of knowledge
or not. I would say he just knew that the work was of an atomic
nature.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Clarence Hiskey, at any time during your
employment with SAM Laboratories, suggest that you furnish any
information to Arthur Adams?
Mr. Manning. No, because wben we were employed by SAM I
didn't know Adams, but I take it your question means at any time
during our association with the Manhattan District work, and the
\ver is "No."
Mr. Tavenner. Did you have any knowledge of the developments
engaged in at SAM Laboratories, Columbia University, or at the
Metallurgical Laboratories at the University of Chicago, that Clar-
ence Hiskey did not have?
Mr. Manning. None that I can think of. I was a technician. I
was on a lower level of information receiving. Everything that I
knew, conceivably Clarence Hiskey would know, and even other people
between me and Clarence Hiskey.
Mr. Tavenner. In other words, in your associations with these
projects, all information available to you was also available to Clar-
ence Hiskey \
Mr. Manning. I feel sure it must have been. He was on a higher
level than I was. He was on what we called the academic level. He
TESTIMONY OF J. S. MURRAY AND E. T. MANNING 889
has access to files and the library and other sources of information
that I did not have. Nobody ever stated to me that he had more in-
formation than I did, but I simply assume that.
Mr. Tavenner. Then I understand your functions in both of those
projects were those of a laboratory technician?
Mr. Manning. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. The various research projects in which you engaged
were projects to which you were assigned by what persons?
Mr. Manning. Well, I worked for various people who, in turn,
were responsible to Clarence Hiskey. Certain problems would be
given to our group for study. I don't think Hiskey would say : "So-
and-So, you take Manning and put him on that problem." But So-
and-So would be assigned to such a problem and I would be available
to work on it. I had certain laboratory techniques I had developed
which naturally put me on certain types of work. But somewhere
along the line it was Clarence Hiskey who decided what I did,
eventually.
Mr. Tavenner. In other words, Hiskey had recourse to the results
of all your work?
Mr. Manning. Oh, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Was there any research work done by you which
would not pass through Clarence Hiskey's hands or come to his
attention ?
Mr. Manning. Yes. After Hiskey left the Chicago project I was
assigned to another man's section, and the work I did then would not
come to Hiskey's attention.
Mr. Tavenner. You stated earlier in your testimony that after your
separation from the Metallurgical Laboratories, you attended a meet-
ing of the American Chemical Society in New York City, and that
while there you called on Arthur Adams. What was the purpose
of your call on Arthur Adams at that time, and what transpired ?
Mr. Manning. It was not after my severance at Chicago, but after
Hiskey's severance, that the American Chemical Society had this meet-
ing in New York City, as I best remember. Many persons were given
leave from the Chicago project to attend this meeting.
I went to New York merely for the trip, and while there did meet
Arthur Adams for lunch, or some meal. The purpose of this meeting
was that when Hiskey was leaving for the Army he had told me that
he was probably being assigned to some special work of a highly
classified nature, and while he was gone would I look after Marcia,
who was his wife, if I had occasion to be in New York ; and also that
Arthur Adams was a very close friend of his, and should anything
come up requiring special attention for Marcia, or about Hiskey, I
should see Adams and find out about it.
Subsequent to the time of Hiskey's leaving Chicago, and prior to
my attendance at the meeting of the American Chemical Society in
New York, I heard by rumor that Hiskey's transfer to the Army was
not at all in connection with his work, but that in effect he was being
removed from the work; and when I saw Adams I endeavored to
find out what he had heard from Hiskey by letter — which was nothing,
said Adams.
Adams asked me what I knew about Hiskey's apparent dismissal.
Naturally, my reply was that I knew nothing.
890 TESTIMONY OF J. S. MURRAY AND E. T. MANNING
I believe it was on this visit to Xcw York that I .also wont to see
Mareia, but I am not too sure. My purpose in visiting her was
courtesy and curiosity as to Clarence's whereabouts. It was on this
visit, I believe, that Hi-key was being transferred from some post in
the North to the South Pacific and I believe Mareia told me she
had just received a telephone call or letter from him to that effect.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall approximately the time that this
meeting took place?
Mr. M awing. It was concurrent, I believe, with the meeting of the
American ( Ihemical Society, but I am hazy on the date.
.Mr. Tavenner. What year was it?
Mr. Manning. 1944.
Mr. Tavenner. How were you able to make contact with Arthur
Adams ?
Afi-. Manning. I knew where he was staying. In Chicago he had
given me his address; or Hiskey had given it to me, I forget which.
When Hiskey left he told me whenever I was in New York to be sure
to look up his old friend, Arthur Adams.
Mr. Tavenner. You knew very little, prior to that time, about
Arthur Adams. You did know that he had been employed, appar-
ently for a considerable period of time, by the Soviet Government.
AYere you not. under those circumstances, suspicious of Arthur
Adams — who he was and what he was doing?
Mr. Manning. During the summer after Hiskey's removal from the
project I did have a suspicion, or a faint idea, that Arthur Adams
was connected with it.
Mr. Tavenner. Having a suspicion that Adams was working in the
interest of the Soviet Union, why did you tip him off that Hiskey had
been called into service apparently for security reasons ?
Mr. Manning. I didn't tip Arthur Adams off to it, if that is what
you mean. I was more interested in the why's and wherefore's. My
suspicions were not too firm. 1 discussed Hiskey's dismissal with Sam
Stemgeiser and probably other people in our laboratory, even Dr.
Urey, and we didn't know accurately that Hiskey was dismissed for
security reasons. Eventually some of us came to suspect it. And I
didn't tie in Arthur Adams too securely with it at that time. I can
see now it sounds naive not to have, but that is the fact of the matter.
I cannot recall the entire chain of circumstances, but let it sullice to
say I did not thoroughly suspect him at that time, or I would not have
gone to see him in Xew York at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Clarence Hiskey's wife, Mareia Sand Hiskey,
tell you anything about the reasons for his being taken into the
service?
Mr. MANNING. Yes. Her reason, in substance, was that the Army,
representing a powerful group in the Government, were mad at
Clarence because lie was a "liberal.'' She stated that she suspected be-
cause of Clarence's political leanings he was removed from his work.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you have any knowledge at thai time that
Mania Sand Hiskey was a member of the Communist Party '
Mi-. Manning. No.
Mi-. Tavenner. At this meeting with her, or at the meeting with
Arthur Adams, was Chapin discussed or mentioned?
Mr. Manning. Not to my knowledge.
TESTIMONY OF J. S. MURRAY AND E. T. MANNING 891
Mr. Tavenner. At the meeting with Arthur Adams, which meeting
took place during the same period as the meeting of the American
Chemical Society, did Adams ask you for any information concerning
the work being done at the Metallurgical Laboratories?
Mr. Manning. No.
Mr. Tavenner. You previously have referred to another meeting
between Arthur Adams and yourself which took place at a club in
the city of New York ?
Mr. Manning. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. When did that meeting take place, and what were
the circumstances ?
Mr. Manning. I forget the the date of this meeting. It might have
been when I was in New York for that meeting of the American Chem-
ical Society, or it might have been some other time. I had some friends
in New York I went to see. I met Adams at the bar or some other place
and discussed, among other things, the possibilities of Americans get-
ting employment in Eussia after the war on rebuilding programs.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you discuss Hiskey at this meeting ?
Mr. Manning. I may have ; I don't recall specifically.
Mr. Tavenner. This meeting was following the meeting with Arthur
Adams, which took place at the same time as the meeting of the
American Chemical Society ?
Mr. Manning. I think so, but I am not sure.
Mr. Tavenner. You have referred to another meeting between your-
self and Arthur Adams in approximately July 1945, which I believe
was after your induction in the Army. Will you outline for the com-
mittee how this meeting took place and what transpired ?
Mr. Manning. Well, I wanted to see Adams, because during the 18
weeks I had been in the Army I had figured out a theory why I had
been suspended from Metallurgical Laboratories, which was based
upon my association with Hiskey and possibly with Adams, and for
that reason they had suspended me, and perhaps the suspension was
necessary, because Hiskey and Adams were engaged in some action
inimical to the project, and I could well extend those actions to
espionage.
The purpose of my meeting with Adams was to inform him of this —
not too obtusely, but letting him know it. I went to a club where I
was staying in New York and called Adams. He said he did not want
to see me, for my sake, I think, and I asked him why and he said he
was mixed up in some trouble or somthing.
I told him I didn't care what the reactions were or what he was
mixed up in, I wanted to come see him, because I had some questions
to ask him.
I anticipated that the conversation I had with Adams at that
time would be recorded. By that time I had been subject to a great
deal of surveillance, and I realized anything I said at that time would
probably be a matter of secret record, if not public record some day.
I went to see Adams; exchanged pleasantries with him. He was ill
and upset. I asked him what his trouble was, and he gave some ex-
planation, unsatisfactory to me at the time, that he was involved in
some sort of litigation with one of the companies he was supposed to
be consulting for.
892 TESTIMONY OF J. S. MURRAY AND E. T. MANNING
I brought the conversation around to Hiskev's dismissal and my (lis-
missal and the fact that I was pretty bitter about it, and whether this
is the correct sequence of the conversation I can't remember, but his
reply was that I should not be too bitter because was it not all for the
good of the general world, or words to that effect.
The conversation developed to the point of Adams asking me —
in terms which did not directly identify the work, but unmistakably I
knew he was talking about my work in Chicago, and he knew it. but
whether he used the words "metallurgical" or "uranium,'' I don't
know — but he asked if I did not think that information should be
made available to all mankind; that is, that information about nvy
work, to which my reply was "No, I did not think so"; that eventually
the world should have, perhaps, that knowledge, but regardless of how
I felt, I was committed to security and secrecy and I did not care to
discuss it.
Thereupon, I left Adams, satisfied to know what I knew.
Mr. Tavennee. What impression did you gain as to Adams' knowl-
edge of the work the Metallurgical Laboratories at the University of
Chicago were engaged in at that time?
Mr. Manning. As I said a minute ago, I don't know whether he
used the words "uranium" or "atom" or not, or whether he used any
words that would identify the work too much, but I recall receiving
the definite impression that he was familiar with the scope of our
work in atomic development. "Whether he knew we were developing
a bomb or not, I can't remember.
Mr. Tavenner. But without being able to remember exactly what
did transpire in your conversation, you did gain a positive knowledge
that Adams knew the nature of the work which the Metallurgical
Laboratories were engaged in ?
Mr. Manning. I would say so.
Mr. Tavenner. At this meeting with Arthur Adams in approxi-
mately July 1945, did you ascertain from Arthur Adams that he had
gotten his knowledge from Clarence Hiskey ?
Mr. Manning. If I did, I must have assumed that. I don't recall
bringing it up or pointing it out. I could not have failed to assume
that, since Hiskey was the only other person engaged in the work,
so far as I knew, who was acquainted with Adams, and I knew the
information did not come from me.
Mr. Xixon. This time is July 1945 ?
Mr. Manning. That is correct.
Mr. Xixon. That was the time when the information concerning
the development of the atom bomb was still top secret. No disclosure
had been made even of the fact the bomb was being considered?
Mi-. Manning. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. The only people who new about it were the people
in the project?
Mr. Manning. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Manning, following this July 1915 meeting
with Arthur Adams, did you have any definite feelings as to Arthur
Adams' real purpose in the United States?
Mr. Manning. Yes.
Mr. TavenNER. Will you at this time outline to the committee what
your feelings were in this regard?
TESTIMONY OF J. S. MURRAY AND E. T. MANNING 893
Mr. Manning. I felt he was involved in some type of activity which
was connected with the atomic development program, and which was
not authorized, and hence might be espionage.
Mr. Tavenner. With that feeling or impresison on your part, did
you report Adams to the Federal Bureau of Investigation or any
other governmental investigative agency ?
Mr. Manning. I did not, and my reasons for this were, to me, at
that time, very plausible and well-founded. In the first place, I felt
that if I had been discharged for association with Hiskey or Adams,
certainly Adams would be under surveillance, and so it did not require
my reporting this fact to the FBI to increase their knowledge about
him.
As for reporting it to security officials engaged in the Manhattan
District project, I felt that if they had seen fit to discharge me without
asking me any questions about Adams or Hiskey, they might in time
decide to ask me questions about them, and it would be unnecessary for
me to report to them what had transpired in July 1945.
Furthermore, I was in the Army, and my experience in the Army
had been pleasant up to that time, with the possible exception of the
constant surveillance of G-2 over me and the disappointment at being
unable to attend any special Army schools or utilize any of my
previous training, due to security reasons, and I did not wish to dis-
cuss it with G-2, feeling that anything I would do at that point would
simply delay my pending departure overseas, and I was very anxious
to go by that time.
And then, as I previously stated, I was convinced that I was under
surveillance at the time. When I went to see Adams I felt I was under
surveillance and that anything I said would be recorded, and I made
no effort to contact any authorities.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that the last time that you saw Adams ?
Mr. Manning. That is the last time.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know what became of Adams ?
Mr. Manning. I subsequently read in the newspaper, and heard
from various intelligence agents, that he escaped to Russia.
Mr. Case. Escaped to or from ?
Mr. Manning. Escaped to. He would like, probably, to escape
from.
Mr. Velde. You said you had the feeling he had escaped to Russia ?
Mr. Manning. No. I said subsequently I learned, from talking to
various intelligence officers, that he had escaped.
Mr. Wood. Did the ship Batory carry him away from here?
Mr. Manning. I have no idea.
Mr. Velde. You have no direct knowledge that he escaped from the
United States?
Mr. Manning. I have no direct knowledge. I have just been told.
Mr. Velde. Is there a possibility in your own mind that he is still
in this country ?
Mr. Manning. I have never seen Arthur Adams since then.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Manning, returning to the period of your em-
ployment at the University of Chicago, did you become acquainted
with Miriam Sherwood?
Mr. Manning. I believe I must have met her at Columbia, but if so,
I didn't know her very well then, because I had to be reintroduced to
her at Chicago.
894 TESTIMONY OF J. S. MURRAY AND E. T. MANNING
Mr. Tavenner. "Was Miriam Sherwood employed by the Metallur-
gical Laboratories at the University of Chicago?
Mr. Manning. I don't think so. In fact, she came to Chicago, I
believe, for the purpose stated to me of trying to transfer her job from
Columbia to Chicago. At that time I was unaware of any intimate
connection between Miriam Sherwood and Clarence Hiskey. Subse-
quently she stayed in Chicago, it seems to me, for several weeks, and
in the course of time I learned that she was staying with Hiskey. As
an employee I did not mention this to Hiskey, but eventually he
told me he intended to divorce Marcia and marry Miriam.
Mr. Tavenner. And he did marry Miriam Sherwood; did he not?
Mr. Manning. I have read as much in the newspapers.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not
Miriam Sherwood was a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Manning. No.
Mr. Tavenner. During your employment at the University of Chi-
cago, did you attend the Abraham Lincoln School?
Mr. Manning. Yes; I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you explain to the committee the circumstances
which led up to your enrolling and your subsequent attendance at the
Abraham Lincoln School?
Mr. Manning. Going back to the first circumstance, one day His-
key asked me to look in the telephone directory and locate a person
named Alban Winspear. I located this man, I forget whether in the
phone book or what, but at any rate the next thing, maybe a few days
later, Hiskey asked if I would care to go with him on Sunday afternoon
to visit Winspear at his home. I didn't care to. I had something
else planned.
I have an idea Hiskey did go see him, and subsequently Hiskey
told me about Winspear having organized a school in Chicago which
was offering very interesting courses. He said he had been invited
down to the school to inspect it, and asked me to go along with him. I
think he asked some other people in the laboratory to go along with
him at that time, too. We went with Hiskey and met Alban Winspear
at the school, which was nothing more than several offices with chairs
in them in downtown Chicago.
Subsequently Hiskey encouraged me to enroll in this school to study
Russian. The reason Russian was picked was that it was about the
only course that was offered there that would add constructively to my
background of scientific work, assuming Russian would be a good
language to know in scientific work. I did attend classes in other
courses, but did not enroll in them.
I think Hiskey attended some elates, and so did other people in the
laboratory. It was a group function. We also attended a few classes
or lectures, the subjeel of which 1 d<m't recall, taught by one Arthur
Stern. The subject was rather vague. It had to do with the orig
and philosophy of mankind, something like that.
.Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall the names of other members of this
group who ai tended the Abraham Lincoln School?
Mr. Manning. I am not certain whether Max Eidenoff attended or
not. I think he did. Malcolm Katz, or Chase, as his name is now.
attended. Sam Steingeiser attended. I think Bernard Barash at-
tended some of the classes.
TESTIMONY OF J. S. MURRAY AND E. T. MANNING 895
Mi*. Tavenner. Mr. Manning, was Clarence Hiskey the organizer
of this group and the moving spirit behind the effort to obtain attend-
ance by the group at this school ?
Mr. Manning. Yes ; he was.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you have any knowledge at that time that the
Abraham Lincoln School was a school operated and controlled by the
Communist Party?
Mr. Manning. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend any other institutions in the Chicago
area or participate in any organizational activities on your own initi-
ative or at the suggestion of Clarence Hiskey ?
Mr. Manning. None that I recall.
Mr. Tavenner. At any time during which you knew Clarence
Hiskey, did Clarence Hiskey suggest to you or attempt to get you to
become a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Manning. He did not.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now or have you ever been a member of the
Communist Party?
Mr. Manning. I am not now nor have I ever been a member of the
Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you ever a member of the Young Communist
League ?
Mr. Manning. To the best of my knowledge I have never been a
member of any Communist organization.
Mr. Tavenner. What organizations have you held membership in?
Mr. Manning. Phi Gamma Delta, a social fraternity ; the American
Chemical Society ; Electro Chemical Society ; Alpha Chi Sigma, a pro-
fessional fraternity in chemistry. I contributed money to the Ameri-
can Friends Service Committee, but I don't think it was one of the
things you join.
At one time I applied for membership in the Federation of Archi-
tects, Engineers, Chemists, and Technicians. I never received any
notification of membership and don't know what became of my $2.
Mr. Tavenner. In addition to In Fact and New Masses, what pub-
lications have you subscribed to?
Mr. Manning. I once subscribed to Soviet Russia Today or a maga-
zine of a similar name. You mean magazines of a leftist character?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Manning. Well, whether I subscribed to New Masses or not I
don't recall. I did buy it on several occasions. I subscribed to In
Fact and Soviet Russia Today. Those are the only publications
which, to ray knowledge, are now identified as pro-Communist that I
have subscribed to.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you relate the circumstances which led up to'
your subscribing to Soviet Russia Today ?
Mr. Manning. I don't recall exactly. I think I received a copy in
the mail and then subscribed to it. I don't know where the copy came
from that I first received. I saw one copy, it was an interesting
magazine to me then, and I subscribed to it. There was an imposing
list of names of endorsers of the magazine. I saw no harm in sub-
scribing to it and I did so.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the approximate date ?
Mr. Manning. I think it was when I was in Chicago in 1944.
896 TESTIMONY OF J. S. MURRAY AND E. T. MANNING
Mr. Tavf.xxer. Did you know at the time you subscribed to it that
Soviet Russia Today was a Communist publication?
Mr. Manning. No, I did not. In fiact, as I said, I read an imposing
list of names of Americans, somewhere in the magazine, as endorsing
the magazine as being a good publication to study Soviet Russia and
to understand that its aim was to cement relations between Russia and
this country.
Mr. Tavf.xxer. Mr. Manning, did you ever know an individual by
the name of Eric Bernay ?
Mr. Manning. I did not and do not.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know an individual by the name of Victoria
Stone?
Mr. Manning. I did not and do not.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you outline to the committee briefly what
transpired in connection with your separation from the Metallurgical
Laboratories at the University of Chicago?
Mr. Manning. I was simply notified that I was suspended, or fired.
A couple of days prior to the actual receipt of my notice of suspension
my section chief, Dr. E. C. Creutz. notified me that I was under secu-
rity investigation, and asked me if I had ever been involved in any
breach of security on the project, and then told me he thought I was
being suspended.
I asked him what that meant, ami he said: "It means you are out
of a job, but," he said, "I understand they are offering you the chance
to resign."
I said: "I have done nothing to lose my job over." At least, so I
thought then; and I insisted that the laboratory dismiss me.
The personnel officer at Metallurgical Laboratories said he was not
authorized to issue a letter of dismissal, but that I could make every-
thing very fine and easy for him if I would only resign. I reiterated
I was not going to resign but they could fire me if they wanted to, but
to give me a reason.
So they finally gave me a letter saying they had been directed by
the Army to suspend me.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you seen or corresponded with Clarence
Hiskey since your separation from Metallurgical Laboratories?
Mr. Manning. I have not seen him. I have corresponded with him.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you last correspond « ith him \
Mr. M \xxing. I forget. It is difficult to say. I think the last letter
I addressed to him was subsequent to my seeing Adams in \ew York,
in which letter I very sketchily outlined what had transpired, indicat-
ing that I was going overseas and that I was glad to he through with
the whole thing.
Mr. Tavenner. What response did you gel from Clarence Hiskey?
Mr. Manning. I don't t hink I ever heard from him again, but up to
that time I had gotten Various note-, from him. one from a station in
northern Canada, where lie merely indicated he wasn't doing much,
and another from a station in the South Yaoific in which he indicated
he was making soap. One letter asked me what had ever become of
Chapin. I probably didn't answer that, because I didn't know
( Jhapin's whereabouts.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you personally know Chapin at that time?
TESTIMONY OF J. S. MURRAY AND E. T. MANNING 897
Mr. Manning. No. I had met Chapin in Chicago but didn't know
him very well.
Mr. Tavenner. Returning again to your association with Clarence
Hiskey, did you at any time meet a person by the name of Joanne
Place while you were in the company of Clarence Hiskey ?
Mr. Manning. Yes; in Clarence Hiskey 's company I did. We were
walking east on Fifty-seventh Street at the University of Chicago and
we saw a young lady, and he stopped to talk to her and introduced her
to me, or me to her, and after she walked away I asked, "Who is she?"
and he said she was the secretary of some Communist organization
in South Chicago. I don't remember his exact words, but she was
identified to me as secretary of that organization which was Com-
munist. That was the first and last time I saw Joanne Place.
Mr. Tavenner. No further questions.
Mr. Wood. Mr. Moulder.
Mr. Moulder. No questions.
Mr. Wtood. Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. No questions.
Mr. Wood. Mr. Case.
Mr. Case. Did you ever know Arthur Adams by any other name?
Mr. Manning. No, I didn't.
Mr. Case. Who solicited your application to join this Federation
of Architects, Engineers, Chemists, and Technicians ?
Mr. Manning. I have tried very much to recall the man's name. I
don't know. I received some literature on that organization. I don't
recall how I got it. Maybe somebody left it on my desk. I discussed
it with Clarence Hiskey and he said it was a union of achitects, engi-
neers, chemists, and technicians. I asked him, "What is it for? Is
there any good in joining it ?" He indicated that the laboratory tech-
nicians at the metallurgical project were organizing a union and he
thought it would be a smart thing to get in on it.
Mr. Case. That was at Chicago ?
Mr. Manning. That was at Chicago. And without giving it much
thought, I said : "I believe I will."
Mr. Case. Hiskey was a member?
Mr. Manning. I don't know. I don't think he was. He was on an
academic level. He was not a technician.
Mr. Case. Who got the $2?
Mr. Manning. Some few clays later a fellow came to me, I recall he
was a colored man, a worker there, and I filled out an application
blank, gave him $2, and never heard of him or the application again.
I wrote a letter to the union once and asked what became of my appli-
cation and the $2, and they answered they would investigate it, or
something like that.
Mr. Case. Did you understand at the time it was a local or national
organization?
Mr. Manning. I understood it was a national organization and that
this was to be a local union. I didn't investigate its background too
much, except to read the proof sheet they got out in the union.
Mr. Case. You didn't attend any of their meetings ?
Mr. Manning. No.
Mr. Case. Do you know where Hiskey is now ?
Mr. Manning. In the newspapers it was stated he is at Brooklyn
Polytechnic Institute.
SiiS TESTIMONY OF J. S. MURRAY AND E. T. MANNING
Mr. Case. But you haven't Been him since the Avar?
Mr. Manning. I never want to see him again. That was evasive. I
haven't seen him since the war.
Mr. Case. He is the only person with whom you ever discussed the
Manhattan projector any of that work in Adams' presence?
Mr. Manning. I never discussed the Manhattan project in Adams'
presence witli Hiskey, and the only time the work of the Manhattan
project, as far as I know, was mentioned in Adams' presence was the
time I called on him in Xew York in 1945, and then it was Adams who
mentioned it.
Mr. Cask. Adams brought it up?
Mr. Manning. Yes.
Mr. Case. You mean by that he knew about it before you said any-
thing about it?
Mr. Manning. Whether I said anything about it or not, my testi-
mony shows I don't recall. As I pointed out, he made it very clear to
me that he knew what we were working on and felt that this informa-
tion would be of some use to mankind — phrases of that sort. Didn't I
feel the same way about it, was the question he put to me. and I said
regardless of how I felt about it, I was committed to the policy of
security and secrecy.
Mr. C ase. You made some observation to the effect, or at least I got
the impression, that you thought Hiskey was responsible for Adams'
knowledge.
Mr. Manning. I could make no other assumption, because I knew of
no other person on the project who had associated with Adams, other
than Hiskey or Miriam Sherwood; she knew Adams.
Mr. Case. Of course, you didn't know all persons Adams may have
been in contact with ?
Mr. Manning. No. I didn't at that time.
Mr. Case. Did Hiskey ever say to you that Adams was a man you
could talk to about the project?
Mr. Manning. No. He said specifically he was a man not to talk
to about the project. In those days when you met somebody at one
of the homes of somebody on the project, if you didn't know the per-
son you usually ascertained, or tried to find out. who he was so that
there would be no slip reference made to him. Very frequently you
would ask if the man was someone associated with the work, and if he
was not, you would be careful not to mention the work' to him.
Mr. Case. After Adams indicated he had knowledge of the work,
did you feel free to discuss it with him i
Mr. Manning. No.
Mr. Case. That is all.
Mr. Wood. Mr. Velde.
Mr. Velde. In your last conversation with Arthur Adams in July
194f). did he leave you with the impression that he knew he was being
watched by our security forces?
Mr. Manning. By our security forces?
Mr. Velde. Yes ; or FBI.
Mr. Manning. I suppose indirectly; yes; because I told him I
thought he was under surveillance by the FBI or some other security
agency, using FBI because I didn't know any other name at that time,
and he offered a lame cmusc that he was involved in litigation with a
business he was connected with.
TESTIMONY OF J. S. MURRAY AND E. T. MANNING 899
Mr. Velde. What business was that ?
Mr. Manning. I don't know.
Mr. Velde. Did he make any suggestion that he might leave the
country, at that time ?
Mr. Manning. I am not too sure of that, but I think he said at that
time that he was on his way to Canada, and I remember previously he
said he was a Canadian citizen at one time.
Mr. Velde. We appreciate very much your coming here and giving
us this information, which will be very helpful in our investigations.
Mr. Wood. Any other questions, Mr. Counsel ?
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.
Mr. Wood. Thank you very much, Mr. Manning.
Mr. Manning. It has been an opportunity I welcomed.
Mr. Wood. Have you any other witnesses?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes ; Mr. Yelverton Cowherd.
Mr. Wood. The committee will go into executive session, gentlemen.
(Thereupon, at 12 : 40 p. m., the public session was concluded and the
committee went into executive session.)
x
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